My Facebook Thoughts

Sunday, January 17, 2010

I Do Like Green Planets And Hams

Since today is Sunday I thought I would write this blog that I have been pondering for quite some time.

The subject is God.

True, it is quite a lofty subject for me, a meek blogger. But, then again, why not me?

The other day I called out Pat Robertson and his "Haiti Hypothesis". I offered this;

"Why couldn't the Haitians have prayed to God for their freedom? God's a good guy. I can see him being opposed to slavery."

Well, those words were challenged by a reader named Jeff. And that challenge reads as follows;

"Are you sure god is a good guy? How do you know? Why is your interpretation any more valid than Pat's? God is against slavery, but not against squashing people with earthquakes? You've just dreamed up a nicer fairy tale for yourself, that's all. You don't have any valid reason that you're right and he's wrong. I'm sure Pat can claim just as much "faith" that his version of god is correct as you can. When will people wake up and see this crap for what it is. A vehicle to control people and exert their will over them. Why do thinking, intelligent people subject themselves to the intellectual slavery and bondage?"

I accept this challenge.

Jeff, as long as man has been on this Earth and been able to think intelligent thoughts, the subject of a God has been discussed. Your argument is not new. And I can not offer you a single fact of evidence that God exists. Just as you and all other non-believers cannot offer a single fact of evidence that God does not exist.

All I have to my defense is a single word that makes all non-believers cringe and roll their eyes. To you and yours I give you the F-word.


Yep, faith. Faith is a very powerful powerful word. And I have a tremendous amount of faith in my God. In fact, I have faith in all religion's Gods.

Jeff, you and many others often confuse God and religion. While its true they are often together, they are not the same thing. You see God is perfect. God makes no mistakes (although a new ruling on the platypus is due out in June). God created us to be His friend. All He asks in return is that we love each other as He loves us. Pretty simple really.

Mankind, on the other hand, is not perfect. Mankind created religions. Religions are not perfect. In the name of many religions many bad things have happened to many people. To be fair, many wonderful and good things have also been caused in the name of religions too.

So we are still in a stalemate aren't we?

Let me try a different approach. There is a huge debate over Global Warming. Many people think we need to alter our lifestyles because we are killing the Earth. At the same time many people don't believe man is doing anything wrong and the Earth will take care of itself.

The Earth is God and and the "Live Greener" mentality is religion. Guys like Al Gore represent priests. Scientists represent the non-believers.

The way I choose to believe and live my life is like this, what's the harm?

If I choose to live my life following God's word, what's the harm? I will love and respect people and hopefully people will love and respect me. And because I believed in God when I die, I will be reunited in heaven with all my loved ones and in perfect health for eternity. Not a bad way to live.

In my Green analogy, if people live a greener life the Earth will be healthier as will the people living on it. Not a bad way to live.

If I'm wrong I will be remembered as a God loving & respectful person and my body will be returned to the Earth. If you're wrong you can still be thought of as loving & respectful, but heaven will be impossible.

In my world people have a God to emulate and their's nothing wrong with that. You claim that believing in God is to be in "intellectual slavery". The exact opposite is the truth. My belief in God sets my mind free to live knowing that if I fail I will always be loved by God.

Many non-believers like to say things like, "What kind of God would allow people to be crushed by an earthquake?" You're missing God's pressence. God is not doing the crushing. God is in those digging to rescue those still alive. God is in those rushing to get there to help the injured and the dieing. God is in the hearts of those who weep for those they can't help.

God is everywhere. Talk to any couple that has gone through fertility treatments to have a child. Every life is a miracle just to be born.

Every civilization that has ever been discovered has had some Higher Being to pray to. It's not crap Jeff, it's Love.

I know I can never change a non-believer's mind and that's not my job. Each person needs to find God in their own time and in their own way. My hope to all those who don't believe, find God before its too late.


Capitalist Pig said...

I didn't read David's comments as he didn't believe in God but rather Pat/Rush's ability to use the platform as a way to control people and their beliefs. These guys are mouthpieces...just like priests. In that light I happen to agree with him. The bible is left to our interpretation and many people leave their interpretation up to what other people say. The analogy here is like reading the newspaper and believing all the stories are fact just because the reporter said so. That's the kind of intellectual slavery/bondage I interpreted from his post. I think the real question here is whether your version of God is any more correctly interpreted than Pat's. That's the real question to argue and it seems like you ignored. That is a question you did not answer. Why are you right and Pat is wrong? BTW, I'm not condoning Pat's comments as I do not believe them. You did, however, write a "heady" post and it deserves a "heady" response.

Mark Ploch said...


You raise good points. And its true that if we accept what others tell us to be true without question, than we are in "bondage".

I have challenged my early teachings of God. I have wondered why God would or could allow certain things to happen. I can't prove my version of God is better than anybody else, nor would I try.

For me to be able to get up each day or to sleep at night I have to believe my God is a God of love and compassion.

Nobody has to agree with except God.

PeaKay40 said...

Good Blog Mark as was the last one.
Guess all we can do is pray that all the non-believers will in their good time find God.
At any rate,the bloggers who look at the subject at hand as being a question of why does God allow bad things to happen?...............
He doesn't we were born with a free will and our life and faith is of our own choosing.
God doesn't do bad things.

Jeff said...

Well, just when I thought your blog was getting boring...

I'm going to respond here for all the comments on both posts. In two (maybe three) parts because the blog won't let me do it in one.

First of all, Thank You, Capitalist Pig. (as a flaming liberal I never thought I would say that in my lifetime, and I hope to never say it again! Hahaha!) They missed the whole point. Their god gave them eyes but they cannot see...

Mark, I was really hoping that you were going to use the f word to tell me to "fuck off, you don't care what I think." That I could have respected, walked away from and waited for the next blog topic. Since you let me down and used the f word "faith", the challenge is indeed on.

Faith as proof of the existence of god might be the only thing older than my arguement. About five minutes older. I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than "I close my eyes, grit my teeth and squeeze really, really hard and I know It's real". That's not going to cut it. You just knowing it's true is way too subjective and isn't near enough. I think it was Bill Maher who recently said, " Faith makes a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about..."

Every civilization since the beginning of time has prayed to a god or many gods. For example, there have been many sun gods. Helios in ancient Greece, Huitzilopochtli of the ancient Aztecs, Ra of ancient Egypt, the list goes on. I submit to you that it was it out of fear or lack of scientific knowledge, not out of love. The idea of a sun god in 2010 would be ridiculed with what we know of science and the universe. In every society there have been non-believer as well. Athieism is not a new concept either.

Jeff said...

Separating your view of god from that of any organized religion's view of god clean's it up from a lot of scandal, but fails to legitamize any of your arguments towards its actual existence. Your version of god as my friendly next door neighbor is nice, but once again, just your subjective interpretation. You couldn't possibly know. To your credit though, your god seems a lot nicer than scumbag Robertson's god, but that's just because you're a much nicer, caring guy and are therefore predisposed to create a more pleasant fairytale.

We are not at all in a stalemate at this point because the burden of proof falls squarely and entirely on you to prove that yours, or anyone else's version of god exists, not on me to disprove anything. You have so far failed to do that.

As far as your analogy to global warming, basically what you're telling me is that you're hedging your bet. If it's all true, when you die you'll get into heaven and if it's not, then oh well. You can't win if you don't play. (You stole that from the lottery people.)

Your ascert that non-believers saying things like "What kind of God would allow people to be crushed by an earthquake?" is them missing god's actual pressence. Is it? Why does he always refuse to help beforehand? Does he not want to get in the way of an individuals "free will" to be crushed by an earthquake? Funny how he always shows up a few minutes after the tradgedy and receives the credit for inspiring everyone to help out. God is everywhere and nowhere it would seem. That's a wash at best. Non-believers say he should've intervened, believers say he helped clean up. Whatever.

Jeff said...

So at this point Mark, you haven't convinced me of anything...and if you believe in the bible or attend any christian church, then you've been told more than a few times that it is in fact your job to do so.

PeaKay, Good guess, I'm not a christian. What tipped you off Einstein? Day turns to night and night turns to day...obviously the work of some super being. Brilliant deductive reasoning there. Well done. Awfully presumptuous of you to assume I've had no trouble or tradgedy in my life. Only someone who hasn't suffered any loss in their own life could be that insensitive to make a statement like that to someone he's never met before. Either that or you're just the typical, pompous, holy than tho, self righteous christian. I know the type all to well. I'm drowning in them. Just because I may scream Oh god! or Jesus! or Fuck me! when a car swerves over and almost kills me in traffic, doesn't mean I believe in god anymore than I desire sex with an automobile. By your logic, someone who turns to science to conceive a child after prayer fails, must no longer believe in god, I guess. Get up off of your knees and do a little research. Google Thomas Jefferson for starters and you will see that this country wasn't founded on christian principles.

So now back to my original question. Why is your interpretation of god any more valid than Pat Robertson's?

Mark Ploch said...


There are no words I can type to make you or any other non-believer change your mind. And like I said, it's not my job to make you believe. Religion asks that I bring more people to church not to make you believe.

When I spoke about infertility I should have expanded my thoughts. The process in creating a life is in itself a miracle. The body has so many forces working against it that for a baby to be born goes against many odds. Those who need infertility treatment understand these odds all to well. I know, I know science can explain it all.

Am I hedging my bet? Oh yeah! Is is a good bet? Oh yeah! The lottery stole the idea from us believers.

Jeff, I'm not going to chase my tail to get you to believe. My God is not better than Pat R's God. My God is better than Pat R.

The only way to truly know the answers is to die. I can wait.

I also ask that if still want to debate please be respectful of others. You've been given that courtesy and I think others deserve it from you.

Jeff said...

Mark, I wasn't aware that I was any less respectful than anyone else. You might want to give PeaKay a slap on the wrist as well. Good luck on your bet. Of course if it turns out you're wrong, you can always demand all of your money and time back from your church. Oh wait, you'll be dead and unable to return the product they sold you. A perfect scam on their part I've got to admit.
You can kick me off of your blog anytime you want. As a matter of fact, I'll do it for you. This will be my last post and the last time I bother to read your blog. It is the least eventful and least interesting of all of the blogs I visit on a daily basis and everyone's skin might be a little thin for a public forum. Also, you might not want to threaten your other three readers that they'll get kicked off if you don't agree with their opinion. You flatter yourself if you think you can afford to lose even one of us. Buh-by now...

Anonymous said...

There are three things in life that are real: God, human folly and laughter.

The first two are beyond our comprehension so we must do what we can with the third.

Mark Ploch said...

I'm not buying anything from any church. I have clearly stated I choose to believe in God of my own free will.

Can we prove God doesn't stop bad from happening?

Jeff, you and other non-believers like to use science and statistics to disprove the existence of God. Fair enough, lets do that.

How can the billions of people for thousands of years be duped into thinking God is real?

Over the years science has proven many things about how the world works, yet billions STILL believe in God. Scientifically I refuse to believe that many people could be wrong for that amount of time.

Are you going to be so bold to say that many people for that amount of time have been duped by salesmen?

Anonymous said...

Let jeff alone. He will rot in hell for not believing Mark. Arrogance is never a good thing.

Mark Ploch said...


I've missed your wisdom.

Please point out exactly where I said anybody had to believe anything I said.

Arrogance is never a good thing, nor is stupidity.

Anonymous said...


You are reading me wrong. I am not attacking your position. I am just making the statement that I believe atheists are hell bound.

God does give us all free choice and jeff made the wrong one.

Scott Plocharczyk said...

This is one those topics that does not have a definitive answer for the living.

Jeff, why leave? Your diatribe was was an excellent contrast to what my brother wrote.

The great thing about all of this is that we're able to discuss it intelligently. Why keep opinions to oneself and deny others a chance to learn something.

In the end people like Limbaugh and Robertson can certainly speak and profess their beliefs. They need to learn some tact.

Robertson being a man of God should have more compassion for his fellow humans. Yet he invokes the contract with the devil and the Haitians brokered by Scott Boras no doubt.

My thought was did he have to tell the world this view and if so, couldn't he had waited like six months instead of six hours?

I'm on the God side of this debate. But I also will listen to the nonbelievers as well.

Either way, we all must get along better because life is too short.

Mark Ploch said...


If I read you wrong I'm sorry.

Like my brother stated having this debate intelligently can only educate. I'm not saying either Jeff is wrong or right or even that he'll rot in hell or central Kentucky.

But, my beliefs are no more fairytale than his or Robertson's.

PeaKay40 said...

Quite honestly I don't believe Jeff will not be back to see what others have to say.
I think that his comments show is immaturity when he must explain himself with the F word, and I don't mean Faith.
Only childish adults have to use that particular addjetive to describe anything.
Jeff all I can say to you is.....
I'll pray for you as you need all the prayers you can get.

Don't flatter youself thinking that
your scientific approach to this topic will ever catch on.

Mike said...

I enjoyed reading all the thoughts on this subject. It is however a stalemate and always will be a stalemate. The existence of God can be debated for days and and you still will be at the point where you started. It's about Faith and always will be about Faith. It's old for that very reason.
Mark doesn't have to prove his beliefs anymore than Jeff has to prove his none beliefs.
Jeff did a nice job of debating on his first 2 posts but he should have quit there. He lost it on his third when he felt threatened and kicked himself off the blog. He also cut down your other bloggers as if he was too intelligent for your blog and will go to his other daily blogs where he can again use his full brain. I know he's liberal but that was very Rush-like.
I also agree he'll be checking in to look at the comments.
Not that it matters here but just for the record I choose to believe in the existence of God. I love science but it can't account for everything. I mean what really was first the chicken or the egg? How?

Scott Plocharczyk said...

If you think about the chicken or the egg concept, either way one of them had to created.

Capitalist Pig said...

I still have one question. How did you arrive at the conclusion Jeff is a "non-believer"?

Labeling him that makes all your "non-believer" comments make sense (your comments Mark and everyone else's). Otherwise, they just seem to be irrelevent comments directed at people other than Jeff. How you amd others feel sorry for him etc.

I think his comments can be read as him being a "believer" if you read them as my original post pointed out. Very few people seem to have even responded to him in that light but rather took a "holyier than though" position...totally irrelevant to his argument.

The words in the bible will always be the words in the bible; that won't change. What will change are peoples interpretation of those words.

Every religious group has different interpretations of those words. To Jeff's point, which may have gotten lost, the leaders of those religeous organizations can make good or make bad with their interpretations and the way they disperse them amongst their "flock". I submit that there will always be religous leaders who take advantage of that.

To put some words in Jeff's mouth, our job is to develop our own interpretation and beliefs (not be spoon fed this stuff). If our beliefs are developed within a specific religous context (Jewish, Catholic, etc) then so be it...but don't tell me your version is more right than mine or better than one group vs. another. That's how religious wars start no matter how big or small. ;)

Mark Ploch said...


With Jeff's quote,
"When will people wake up and see this crap for what it is. A vehicle to control people and exert their will over them. Why do thinking, intelligent people subject themselves to the intellectual slavery and bondage?"

Is what did it for me.

Capitalist Pig said...

Out of context that is dubious but in context that statement is not about his belief in God but rather about organized religion and its followers. I don't take that as not believing in God. I think that question is especially relevant when we talk about the fringes of religion and those that commit violence in the name of religion. It does beg the question he posed (which is less a religious question and more of a social quesiton).

Maybe the delivery was a bit too "in your face" but the point, I believe, is still valid.